Post by Martin Doerr (25 September)
Dear All,
I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label.
Best,
Martin
Post by Wolfgang Schmidle (26 September 2023)
I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut would be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs and Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for
E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive
E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive
Best,
Wolfgang
Post by Wolfgang Schmidle (1 October 2023)
Some additional questions:
P189 and P171:
E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive
is a strong shortcut of
E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space Primitive
Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo?
Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now?
Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e.
E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive
E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive
P189 and Q11:
Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? For example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates itself), which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not the same (Declarative Place approximates Place).
P189 and P7:
E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place
is an inverse shortcut of
E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place
P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)]
(leaving out the "same reference system" requirements)
Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add the "will to approximate" to the long version? i.e.
P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)]
This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439 (Approximate Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that P189 shouldn't be used when one can establish "falls within". But it seems to me that
P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by"
would work very well together.
Best,
Wolfgang
Post by Wolfgang Schmidle (3 October 2023)
Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82.
So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway.
Post by George Bruseker (3 October 2023)
The duality of primitives as being in and out of of the universe of a discourse is a problem