Issue 637: New e-vote for CRMsci: examples & new label for S23 Position Measurement and properties

Starting Date: 
Working Group: 


An evote for the examples of S23 Position Measurement, O30 determined position, O31 has validity time-span, and O32 measured position of. The outcome is to inform issue 623 (editorial check of CRMsci v2.0). 

Old Proposal: 

Post by Thanasis Velios (13 February 2023)

Dear all,

Many thanks to those who voted for the CRMsci examples. Also, many thanks to Wolfgang who has flagged several inaccuracies with the Titanic examples, done deeper research and has provided further clarity. Following his review, Athina and I thought it is appropriate to send another e-vote out with the more recently proposed changes. Apologies for asking for another reading of the examples from you, but hopefully this will be the final piece of work for version 2.0. Any more issues beyond the specific examples can be raised against version 2.1 which we will prepare as soon as version 2.0 is ready.

Please vote YES if you are happy with the changes below (any minor editorial changes should not stop you from voting YES, we can take care of them anyway). Vote NO if you think the examples are not appropriate and need further work, with some explanation on what that work should be. Please vote by the end of day Friday the 17th of February


Many thanks for taking the time to improve and review these examples. Looking forward to concluding version 2.0.

All the best,

Thanasis and Athina

Post by Martin Doerr (13 February 2022)




Current Proposal: 

Post by Thanasis Velios (4 March 2023) 

Dear all,

Many thanks to those of you who voted for the CRMsci examples in the last e-vote which will be added to the document.

In the process of discussing these examples with several of you, there was a strong view that the current label of S23 Position Measurement is confusing. I appreciate that the role of labels is to reminder us of the scope note and in general we avoid arguing too much about them. I would not normally call for an e-vote on a label, but this is the first time that S23 is formalised in a stable CRMsci version so it is worth getting it right so that we do not have to change it.

The proposal is to change the label

  • from: S23 Position Measurement
  • to: S23 Position Determination

S23 is not a measurement in the sense of S21. Including the word "measurement" in the label will confuse people referring to this class.

Please vote YES if you agree with this change. Please vote NO if you disagree giving some rationale.

If we go ahead with this change, it will mean that some editorial changes are necessary in other parts of the document for consistency which Athina and I are happy to do.

Many thanks for your patience with this version of CRMsci. We are very nearly there.

All the best,


Post by Martin Doerr (4 March 2023)

I vote YES, change.

The point is that S23 describes implicitly the simultaneous measurements of the contributing parameters, typically two or three, necessary for a position determination and the resulting position. The contributing measurements may be specified explicitly as parts of it. But the resulting position is that at the time of observation as the observed values suggest, and not any calculation of a position of something at a different time and place. If the resulting position is calculated at a bit later time exclusively from the observed values, is not relevant. Modern GIS systems do not give details, but also historical records often do not.

E.g. "The position measured by Alexander von Humboldt for the Plaza Mayor in Cumaná, Sucre, Venezuela 1799-1800AD (E53) place is defined by 10°27'52"N 66°30'02"W (Example for P168)." Humboldt refers to the measurement only like that "in this night I could observe some stars to determine the position of..." and the position. He mentions how he was maintaining his clock, one of the best of his time.



Post by Christian-Emil Ore (5 March 2023)


A comment : In seafare  a ship's position at a given time was often calculated on the basis of the last observation of the latitude  and longitude by the chronometer and sextant and then the direction and speed  (velocity vector) during the elapsed time since the observation, see  some of the examples of S23 and its properties.  This method can also be used to determine the position of the vessel before the observation.



Post by Olivier Marlet (6 March 2023)

I am working on a model of funerary anthropology and this precision in the terminology of S23 goes perfectly in the direction of my reflections.




The updates form part of CRMsci v2.0. The issue is closed. Issue 623 has been informed of this decision.